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July 31, 2004
Should Women be allowed to Preach?
1 Timothy 2:11-12 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
Should a woman be allowed to be a deacon(ess) or an elder in a church?
I would say that it goes against scripture to allow deaconesses or women elders (pastors). While many women out there could clearly teach me a thing or two about God and scripture, that would go against the model of federal headship. Man is the head of the family…
1 Corinthians 11:3 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.Ephesians 5:22-24 22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
Why would a woman be allowed to, say, lead a children’s ministry, but not be an administrative pastor of a church?
The key to whether women can teach a children’s ministry is in that they are not teaching men but rather children. These children should still be getting spiritual instruction from their fathers and mothers but are not ready to study on their own. A woman is capable of giving instruction but must submit to God’s authority and instructions.
Titus 2:3-5 3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, 4 so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored
Would you let a woman be a guest speaker and give a sermon?
This is more difficult because a woman could be a very valuable guest speaker, but is that acceptable. I guess it depends on the context of the situation; is it topical or is it preaching? Does that even matter? I would be uncomfortable to have a woman as a guest speaker or giving a sermon during the service but a separate arena may be preferable – a special “class” or speaking opportunity for example. I have to admit that this is a very slippery slope.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
This section follows discussion about speaking in tongues and prophesy and so it may be limited to that concept but I suspect that it may be addressing the issue at Corinth where women may not have been turning to their husbands for spiritual leadership. They may have been trying to circumvent their roles and seeking instruction from other men (not elders) or were even trying to teach other men. I may have tried to cover too many ideas for one post but I hope it makes sense. I’ll respond to any clarifications you have or to expand on these ideas if needed.
When posting arguments for or against, please quote scripture. You can find online bible translations at Bible Gateway. Please understand that I have the utmost respect for Godly women and have no doubt they are very capable of teaching/preaching in the church. It’s just that I understand the scriptures to be God-breathed and true in their entirety. I also understand the scriptures to say that women are not to teach or preach in the church. It never says can’t or incapable of teaching.
Finally, what does this mean in regards to evangelism? Are women not to evangelize? Are they not to share the gospel? I don’t think this is the case. Maybe the instructions from God only applied to the church environment. This may allow for outside studies, books, seminars, children’s ministry, etc.
Note: I respond to comments in bold
UPDATE: this has been re-posted at Blogogetics.com, please leave future comments on that post.
Hey Archshrk, This is Talondale. Good post. I have to agree with you on this. Although women can be affective teachers and speakers, Elizabeth Elliot and Beth Moore, I don’t think they should hold positions of authority in the Church or positions of teaching over men. I would point out that the motive is symbolic in nature and involves the different roles assigned to men and women, and part of the curse in the garden of Eden, not a reflection of the worth or abilities of women.
I guess we should simply remain in a red tent and listen to men tell us how to live. NOT!
archshrk responds: That would not be based on scripture. The only one who should have authority over a woman is her father, her husband, and (spiritually) her pastor. Not all men, just those three and only as far as they hold to God’s will. This is the importance of being a godly man. If we, as men, fail to be godly leaders, we are failing our wives, our daughters, and in the case of elders, the people God has entrusted to them.
too bad men are so ignorant
archshrk responds: Thanks for commenting. Many people visit this post but few comment. Your observation isn’t very far off. Scripture tells us that men are to be the spiritual head of their family. Unfortunately, far too many men fail to do this, thus forcing women to step up to fill the void. That’s the issue I should write about – the failure of men to lead the church and their families.
1. Congrats on the proof texting. That’s so original of you.
2. Newsflash: Paul is not nor will he every be Jesus. Jesus supported women, children, the poor, the taken advantage of – he taught to love one another…he had plenty of opportunity to say that women can not preach but guess what…HE NEVER DID!!! DON’T YOU FIND IT IRONIC THAT THIS OPINION IS FOUND IN ONLY PAUL’S WRITINGS (NOT TO MENTION IT WAS TO A CHURCH IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT CULTURAL CONTEXT- but then again if you were taking culture into mind when reading the scripture in the 1st place you wouldn’t have written this post)???
3. Riddle me this: in 1st Corth. Paul says that both men and women are given the gift of/to prophesy…so before he states the ALWAYS proof texted 1st corth. Scripture he states that women and men are to preach (aka prophesy)
archshrk responds: “Human”, I suspect you don’t believe the whole canon is God’s Word since you pit Paul against Jesus. I imagine you do not hold to the inerrancy of scripture. Talk about prooftexting and misquoting. One of Wayne Grudem’s main points about the egalitarian view is that once biblical manhood and womanhood are undermined, usually the authority and inerrancy of Scripture is quick to follow. Then after that, the Gospel is melted away.
Taken culturally, the early church was pretty radical. Prior to this, women and men could not worship together. So Paul is speaking to a mixed church of men and women which was previously not possible. I personally find that to be pretty liberating.
As for the gift of prophesy, at no point does scripture say that women are to refrain from evangelizing or teaching in all forms. In fact, it clearly says that the older women are to teach the younger. The only issue here is whether or not (according to scripture) women are to be elders/pastors within the church.
I believe the issue of women not being deaconesses or pastors has more to do with the holding of authority than it does the actual instruction on the Word.
As archshrk has clearly emphasized, there is no question that women are capable of reading and understanding the Word as well as, or even in some individual cases better than men.
As an example of what I mean: A woman may have had more opportunity to study a particular passage of scripture which a male acquaintance has only recently begun to study or may be struggling with. If the subject should arise in conversation, it would seem ridiculous for the woman to withhold such knowledge or understanding which she has gained, simply because she is a woman and he is a man.
Another example might be a woman leading a one time Bible Study on a particular subject or section of Scripture. One time would be fine, however it should not be a regular occurrence, for that would place her in a position of authority. It’s tricky to word, but the difference is something like that of a guest speaker, verses our church Pastor. One holds authority over us and has the ability to hold us accountable, the other is simply someone we look to as a source of knowledge. As with anyone the source must be tried by the Scriptures.
As for women writing scripture based books and articles, or holding seminars I see no authority issue there, and therefor no reason for women to refrain from such activities. . . . . But then, if you disagree with that last statement, you’ve probably disregarded my posting altogether anyway.
I realize this is a touchy subject, and one which may be difficult to discuss clearly online, so please be gracious in your questions and responses.
Great Post, I’ve been looking for some actual biblical evidence on this; as it seems to come up a couple times a year. I’ve had a few dicussions with women about this, and it’s never a matter of capability, or capacity; women are amazing and truly the crown of creation. It’s a matter of what we were created for. That’s where my conversations end up anyway.
I also find it incredibly interesting that opposition (those in favor of women preachers) always challenge the word of God, reminds me of the Serpents first question (Gen 3:1).
archshrk responds: Thanks for visiting and your comment. It’s a very tricky subject that many people (including Christians) get upset about. A really good article that I found helpful is Foundation of Biblical Manhood. It does a great job of using scripture to show that, while our roles are different, we are created equally in the image of God. There’s also a series of sermons that addresses the roles of women and men and the Christ-centered, biblical models of what it means to be a Godly image bearer. The series can be found under “topical” sermons.
Hi. In reference to scripture pertaining to the “fall”…and that is why Paul says woman must not teach. I thought God’s blood bought people of the new covenant are to rise above all the guilt from the fall? I thought we are to be living a new life in Christ? Free Indeed! ???? Please answer this for me….why are woman kept in the post-fall condition of sin and condemnation in the aspect of man rule? Did God or did God not tell Eve her husband would rule over her as a result of sin entering the world? This as I see it is one of the last bastions of God’s divine plan to teach and guide the church…. “Your son’s AND DAUGHTERS will SPEAK FOR GOD!” Just like many other times and topics…the church fights the spirit every step of the way.The subordination of woman is not the “picture of Christ and the church”, It is the picture of man and sin.
Love In Jesus,
Karen
archshrk responds: Hi, Karen. Josh’s reference to the fall in Gen 3:1 is demonstrating how the serpent “misquoted” God’s instructions to Adam. Christ’s blood does atone for our sins, but it does not remove the sin nature. Rather, we are forgiven because Christ imputes His righteousness on us and He takes on our sin (and the penalty) at the cross. Now, looking at Gen 3:16, we see that in the fallen state, Eve’s desire would be for her husband. The Hebrew word for desire is the same word used regarding sin’s desire for Cain. And Cain was told to rule over it (but he did not). This is all speaking of the relationship between a husband and wife but we can look at it to see how it applies to Federal Headship. In every covenant, there is a single point of contact. That is, someone is responsible for it. OT examples would include Adam, Abraham and Moses. When we apply that model to the church we see that the marriage imagery and the covenantal relations still apply. In this case, the elder/pastor is the covenant head over the body, much like Christ is over the church. This does not mean that women are not to evangelize. Simply that they are not to hold authority over men (within the church).
If some would actually take the time to do a historical critique, (real research on biblical topics) they would be amazed to find out the reasons for Paul’s comments on women.
Women have been abused through the ages in the church. Women are just as capable as men to preach. Also, too many Christian husbands distort the word “submit” in order to control their wives. When a husband does this, he is in sin for many reasons; one is that he is not “loving” his wife according to the scriptural directive. Amazing that many are slow to address this issue.
I am confused. Yes biblically women are not to be pastors but then what is it that makes them feel God has called them to it? If they aren’t supposed to preach\teach, then what are they supposed to do?
archshrk responds: Good question. At no point does scripture say that women are to refrain from evangelize or teaching in all forms. In fact, it clearly says that the older women are to teach the younger. The only issue here is whether or not (according to scripture) women are to be elders/pastors within the church. As for what makes them feel called to do it…well that’s a bit tougher. 1) men have failed to lead within the church. and 2) it’s part of our sin nature as described in Gen 3:16 where the word for desire is the same Hebrew word used to to describe sin’s desire over Cain in Gen. 4:7
As for what women are to do, aside from evangelize, they are to be “helpers suitable”. Eve was created to be a helper suitable for Adam (Genesis 2:18-23) and this is no small obligation. We see that in John 14:25-27 the Holy Spirit is referred to as a helper. In much the same way, a good wife helps her husband remember what God has said to him. My wife does this very well and her help makes me a better leader of our household. But what about single women. Simply put, they are to prepare themselves to be a “helper suitable”. First to their fathers and then to their husbands.
thanks for posting the biblical proof of a woman not being allowed to preach. i live in Georgia and have been having a problem with the more charismatic denominations belief that a woman can stand in the place of a man. they need to realize that they are rebelling against Gods word. i have been preaching for four years now, and am proud to see someone with enough spiritual backbone about them to stand for God word and not the popular idea. And as for the man’s comment about Jesus never saying a woman cant preach, i have a question. were any of the disciples women? Once again thanks for posting the truth and not the popular opinion.
Good discussion here. But how literal can we take the scriptures? Very? Not so very? Overall, there seems to be a lot of contradictions pointed out from both sides of the road here. May I point out a couple things. First, let’s look at how “literal” Abraham took what he believed to be the Word of God in his heart when he took his only son to kill him as a sacrifice to God. Even though this was long before the Commandments were handed down to Moses, we have to concur that killing was established as something to be punished for. Many question the existance of “law” before Moses’ time. But it had to exist because of the situation between Cain and Abel. Yet, Abraham was willing to go so far as to break this law in his trusted obedience to what he truly believed was expected of him by God. There are so many instances through the Bible in both the Old and New that it would take too much time to reference them here. But as a woman, I truly believe God has placed a call on my heart to do what ever is necessary to reach the lost and dying world, even to the point of self sacifice. Now, that is not to reduce the liberty of the Blood of Jesus as a means to sin, but it does recognize that, within the limits of Divine instigation of discernment, I will follow what I believe to be correct in God’s eyes, even if it is in contradiction to someone else’s personal conviction of right and wrong. I have that much faith in my relationship with God the Father through Jesus.
If some claim women shouldn’t preach at all then what about Sunday school? You have ladies teaching Sunday school to kids in Churches generation after generation. If christian ladies are not allowed to speak or teach Sunday school classes to kids in Church then they shouldn’t be allowed to speak or teach altogether. People who think such foolishness that a christian woman should not be allowed to preach or teach the Bible…doesn’t know Scripture. I have problems with either man or woman who aren’t called of God to pastor a church and yet you have them pastoring a church. They may know the ins and outs of pastoring but if they’re not called of God to pastorship then the church have problems. Wrong people in leadership will cause the church to go down hill. Spiritual growth will be non existent. Basically a dead church.
archshrk responds: You are correct in that churches should not be lead by people who are not called to lead. The scriptures clearly describes who is called to lead. We see in Titus 1:5-16 and 1 Timothy 3:1-13 the qualifications for an elder and we see in Ephesians 4:11-16 that not everyone is called to be an elder of the church. But do not confuse history with scripture. Just because something has been done for generation after generation, does not mean it is biblical. Sunday School is not even described in scripture. So what model is it based on? For us, our children’s ministry is headed my a godly man and lead my other godly men with godly women assisting them.
Our God works through covenants. It is through these covenants that He interacts with man and establishes blessings, consequences and ultimately our hope in salvation. In each covenant God establishes a specific person to be held primarily responsible. In the Old Testament we see some of the covenants between God & covenant heads:
Examples:
Adam (Hosea 6:7; Romans 5:12-21; I Corinthians 15:21-22)
Noah (Genesis 6:18, Gen. 9:9-17)
Abraham (Gen. 12:2-3, Gen. 17:2-21, Exodus 2:24)
Moses (Exodus 34:10, Exodus 34:27-28; Leviticus 24:45)
David (II Chronicles 7:18, II Chronicles 21:7)
THIS IS TYPICAL STATEMENTS COMING FROM PEOPLE.SHOULD A WOMAN BE ALLOWED TO PREACH.THE BIBLE PLAINLY SAYS NO.BUT WAIT!!!AS USUAL MOST PEOPLE WILL TWIST THE SCRIPTURES TO WHERE IT SAYS WHAT THEY WANT IT TO SAY TO THERE BENEFIT.LIKE PEOPLE ASK WHAT WILL BE GOD’D WAY BUT,LIKE BURGER KING WE WANT IT OUR WAY.
archshrk responds: having trouble reading this comment? I typically don’t edit people’s comments but when needed, I’ll edit for clarity. This comment seemed hard to read but I didn’t want to add or remove from the commenter’s original impact. So I simply added my interpretation of the comment below.
I don’t think our dear women should even be worship leaders. They can be singers yes and teach younger women and maybe small kids and a lot of other thing that doesn’t include teaching or having authority over men.
Where in San Diego can we find a biblical church with women not having authority over men?
If we can’t find one I think we should start one if it is God will.
Also I believe we should not borrow money from banks because if we do we would become slave of them. Instead let us trust fully in God providence. Alleluya
Respectfully
archshrk responds: Looking for San Diego Churches? Look here. I think you’ll find several churches that hold to scripture as the inerrant word of God. As for the issue of borrowing money…I would agree but that’s another topic.
I recently started searching the scriptures to see what the bibles says about women preaching. From the scripts I have found the answer is no. I am not one of those people who grew up in the church and been taught something from my church I have been really looking for the truth.These are the scripts that I have found 1tim.2:11-15 WOMEN LEARN IN SILENCE,WOMEN SHOULD NOT HAVE AUTHORITY OVER A MAN, ADAM WAS FORMED FIRST AND HE WAS NOT THE ONE TO BE DECEIVED BUT THE WOMAN WAS DECEIVED AND FELL INTO TRANSGRESSION. 1cor11:3 THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST, HEAD OF WOMAN IS MAN AND THE HEAD OF MAN IS CHRIST. IF THE MAN IS HEAD OF WOMAN HOW COULD A WOMAN BE OVER ANY MAN. I read someones comment earlier that stated they thought we were not under the law anymore. This is what helped me, before Jesus died animals were being sacrificed, and after Jesus came and was resurrected we no longer sacrificed animals anymore, and the New Testament never stated that we had to. In Gen it was stated that man ruling over woman was a result of sin, but because the bible continued to talk about man been rulers over women in the New Testament assured me it was something that still exists, if it didn’t I think he would have never brought it over into the New Testament the way that he did. Might sound crazy but that is what helped me. There are other scripts that I found but it will definitely take to long to type them all in. Thanks and I hope this doesn’t offend anyone. By the way I have been really trying to understand where did TRINITY come from because I haven’t been able to find it in the bible I think someone said it talks about it in an indirect way but I want the actual scripts that talks about the trinity and scripts where the word trinity was actually used. Thanks So Much
archshrk responds: While the word “Trinity†does not appear in Scripture, the concept very clearly does. Church father Tertullian (155-220 ad) was the first to use the word “Trinity.†To say that God exists as a Trinity does not mean that there are three Gods, or that one God merely manifests Himself as either Father, Son, and Holy Spirit on various occasions.
To say that God exists as a Trinity is to say that there is one God with a unified essence who exists in three equal persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. By person it is meant that God thinks, feels, acts and speaks. The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647) summarizes the doctrine by saying, “In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.†– Kaleo
I think this is one of those issues where you can find verses that seem contradictory. It’s easy enough to pull verses out that show either view point, but determining the truth is much more difficult.
Romans 16:1 calls Phoebe a “diakonos” or deaconess. Deacon means servant, and this same word is used in places like Philippians 1:1 to say the letter is written to the “bishops and deacons.” The word “diakonos” is translated in various verses as minister, deacon, or servant.
archshrk responds: It is true that the word Deacon does come from the Greek word for servant, but it does not mean that every time the word diakonos is used, it means ‘deacon’.
Phoebe is called a “servant of the church of Cenchrea.” The word, ‘servant,’ is what is occasionally translated as ‘minister,’ or less often as ‘deacon.’ It is clear in the context of this chapter and the Bible that Phoebe had no authority over a man, she was a fellow helper in Christ, a servant. Some people argue that In verse 2 the Greek word prostatis applies to Phoebe and means, “one who presides over an assembly.” No such meaning can be found in New Testament times; the word simply means “helper”, “assistant”, or “patroness.”
Clear scriptures interpret vague ones and the Bible clearly teaches that a woman cannot have authority over a man in a church setting (1 Timothy 2:11-12). Therefore, taking into account the many verses and examples that we have throughout the whole of scripture, the obscure passage of Romans 16:1-2 should not be used to support a woman having authority over a man when we have clear passages that forbid it.
Ok well what about Deberoha in the bible who led people out of slavery, she was a leader. I think that people have to take the scripture in context. if we took everything that literally, today women wouldn’t wear makeup or have short hair. some of these things are cultural. as in those days if a woman wore makeup she would be seen as a prostitute, but now the majority of women do wear makeup. Also God didn’t want women preaching because they hadn’t been taught how to and they were saying stupid things. Any scripture read should be noted of who it may have been written for, the traditions and culture as well as reading beforehand of what had happened and getting a clear understanding of the particular book.
archshrk responds: The function of judges was primarily martial and judicial. As a judge, Deborah helped people make wise choices in their lives in the absence of prominent godly leadership among the people. But, Judges were neither anointed nor were their decisions binding as a King’s decisions would. Now compare the Prophetess Deborah to Eli, who was both high priest and judge and you see that Deborah was a Godly woman and a good leader, but she was not an Elder or Deacon of the church.
I agree with you archshrk. great blog!!!!
This is a great opportunity to discuss this issue; and I do mean discuss. We may not all agree, but we should never be found insulting and bringing other brothers and sisters of Christ down. Anyway, about our subject, we must be very careful in reading scripture without first knowing how the orignal greek reads. In the greek, I know that the bible clearing says the women and men have their roles and each one is important. Also, the greek is clear about God not calling women to be pastors. However, in 1 Tim 2:12, the greek rendering is not “women” but wives. How do we know this since the same greek word is used for both women and wives? The context of the scripture. The greek word for man here, is “husband”. So therefore, since not all women had husbands, this verse can not possibly be a blanket statement that all women are not to preach. Furthermore, the KJV translation here is not adequate. When it comes to “usurping authority” it should read “by usurping authority”. Paul is saying that wives should never use the opportunities to teach, to degrade, talk down to, nor lord over their husbands. In all actuallity, this particular verse does not even refer to inside the church behavior and roles. I just addressed it because it seems to be the verse that everyone is using to say women are not called by God to preach. We can “discuss’ other scriptures if desired, but I am guessing that this one will generate more than enough “holy ghost filled” chatter. Before I sign off, I must say however that Archshrk, you are the first person that I have met that is against women preaching or pastoring with such a gentle, polite and Christ-like spirit. My discernment of you may be totally off, but I don’t think so. This is the only reason I decided to post. I have read numerous blogs and they are filled with people more concerned with stamping home their point, than honoring Christ with their responses. Prov 15:1 Be Blessed
Some have questioned why, if Jesus did indeed approve of women leading churches, did he not have a woman apostle. Some above even used this item as evidence that Jesus supporting having women in a submissive role…So i ask you, what is your position on the Apostle Junia? So clearly a female that Paul also writes about? And Jesus’ radical decision to travel with women in his company? Even his closest compatriots questioned this radical notion, right? And what about the fact that Jesus not only preached that men and women were equal in heaven, but treated them as equals on earth? no where in the NT did he ever patronize or put down any women, in fact he praised many women and broke bread with many women and respected their advice and knowledge…And if we don’t use some historical context in examining Paul’s writings, how do we understand when he wrote to the corinthians and told them to not marry, if they were not already married, when he clearly, in other letters, praise the sacrament of marriage and encourages us to seek married relationships? If we use historical context in some of his writings, where do we draw the line? I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anything said above, these are just questions i would like to have your opinion on…thank you
archshrk responds: Romans 16:7 (English Standard Version)
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
Here, Jania is sometimes translated as Janias and apostles is translated as messengers. Either way, the people Paul is referencing are not referred to as apostles but rather “known to the apostles”. The phrase my kinsmen is Paul’s way of saying they are Jewish, like him. To be “well know” or “prominent” or “great among” means they are godly people who have a good reputation with the apostles.
As for Jesus’ treatment and interaction with women, there is no conflict here. At no point am I trying to argue that women are lesser people. Genesis clearly says we are created as co-heirs to the kingdom. But just as Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Father have different roles within the Triune Godhead, so women and men are created with different roles. As as it applies to Spiritual headship and authority within the church, God has given that role to men. The problem is that, as sinners, we have rejected our roles and responsibilities. The beauty of this, is that a strong women is a “helper suitable” to a strong man. But too often, strong women marry weaker men. This leads to wrong relationships that adds conflict to the union.
On the issue of marriage, Paul’s point was that lust distracts us from focusing on God. God created marriage because it is not right that man should be alone. He created a helper suitable for this very reason. But we need to look at the need. God exists in the perfect relationship of the Triune Godhead – we do not. In order for us to experience a similar relationship, he created marriage. That is why the roles are so important.
There are plenty of women stronger (and more spiritual) than me, but I have been called to be the spiritual head of my household. If I am not strong enough to lead or my wife is not strong enough to be a help, then our relationship suffers.
I hope I’ve been able to explain myself on these questions clearly. If you want more clarification or new questions have come up, feel free to email me directly (or leave another comment)
Another question, and again, please permit me to say these are questions and i have no ‘liberal’ or ‘feminist’ agenda…i truly am seeking guidance here…my question is this…you open your argument by stating it is clearly stated in 1 Timothy 2:11-14 that women should learn in quietness, not permitted to teach or have authority over men all because Adam was first, then Eve and that Eve was the one deceived, not Adam (i have a follow on question about this later) but what about 1 Timothy 2:15 that says “But women will be saved through childbrearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.” This sounds like it says i, as a women, will be saved (forgived?) by having children, so I could become a pastor if i have children b/c I am saved? And what about 1 Timothy 3:1-5 which lays out who can be a Deacon? It states He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect (if anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?)” So this clearly states a man must then have children? So why do we permit Deacons who are single? with no children? or Deacons that have children that are unruly? Finally, i have a question from Genesis 3:6-7 “When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasig to the eye, and also desireable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.” This implies that Adam was there all along when Eve was talking with the Serpeant, right? So why is only Eve guilty? And like a lot of Jesus’ parables in the NT, the second party, in this case Adam, tells God it is Eve’s fault, just like the oldest son complained when the father gave the prodical son a party, right? This explains human nature, a theme us humans constantly are reminded of in the bible, that when our sins are showed to us, we first tend to blame others? but why is the prodical son taken as a symbol of God’s love for everyone, even the 11th hour confessor (like the thief i will confess to thee) but Eve and all women are condemned? Just questions, thank you so much for your time and patience!
thanks SO much for this article! i totally agree with it. the real question of women in church office really comes down to whether or not to believe the authority of the Scripture.
my question is concerning women who are divorced. according to scripture is it lawful for her to remarry?
archshrk responds: You may find this is addressed in my post about Christian Divorce. But my quick answer is yes, it is lawful. We should avoid divorce as much as we can but God is forgiving and allows remarriage. But it needs to be God honoring just as everything we do.
“the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man” Clearly this is talking about the marriage relationship. Can you show me from Scripture where a woman is commanded to be in submission to any other male?
Did Mary ask her father or Joseph if it was alright with him before she said “yes” to the angel? Did the Proverbs 31 woman ask her husband before she went to buy a field? Does anyone see a problem here?
I think that this is a very controversial issue, but I think that you are right on!! The Bible is clear about women teaching men. That does not mean that they cannot have the gift of prophecy, administration, teaching, etc. Many women have the gift of teaching and teach Sunday school, lead Youth Group Bible Studies (which is a command from Titus 2, women to lead the younger women), lead a women’s Bible study, work in the nursery, or sing in the choir. I think women should be actively involved in church, just not in the role of a preacher.
We do not need to confuse the institution of church with the body of people called God’s church. It is about a relationship with Christ. Leading people can easily be confused with power and authority. Leading an institution is like leading a business. Guiding and teaching God’s people to be disciples is totally different. If someone, woman or man, is called to help the lost or feed the sheep, they are called to create diciples. Having a pastoring gift is to love on someone to bring them closer to Christ. The scriptures mentioned many times before in Titus and Corin. state the role a woman and man should hold. In observing those roles we are showing God’s love and His devine plan. The designed role of the family is the design for all institutions of man. It is not a matter of a women’s capability, it is a matter of obedience. Even Eve wanted to be more like God. What if Adam had stood up and assumed his rule over his wife? Perhaps this conversation would not exist.
[...] for the controversial types, I give you Should Women be allowed to Preach? A scriptural look at the roles of women in Elder positions. Not very popular with those who [...]
Your first question is a red herring. It is possible that a woman could serve as “deaconess” and not be eligible to serve as “elder”. These are not the same positions, biblically.
I think that the Bible tells us they should not serve as either, but they are not one and the same question.
archshrk responds: Very true. When I posed this question to myself and my readers, I wanted to be more general and look at the issue of church leadership. Deacons and Elders are different roles within the church body but at the time I wrote this, deacon was less clearly defined, or at least – less universally accepted. I would agree that both roles fall under the issue of Federal Headship – that is, women should not be deacons or elders. At the same time, not every man is qualified to be a deacon or elder.
Instructions are that deacons and elders are to be “the husbands of one wife.” Seems that this rules out women and single men as Deacons, Elders,and also Pastors since Pastors normally hold the rank of Elder. Our churches only ordain pastors that are married.
Good day to everyone in this forum. I am going to drop some things real quick on this forum. If you look at the word you will find these things in reference to this topic:
The first 2 preach Jesus to the Jews was a woman (see Luke 2:37,38)
The first to proclaim the resurrection was a woman (see mat 28:8)
The Samaritan woman preached to men (see John 4)
Were in attendance at the first prayer meeting (see acts 1:14)
the First people to greet Paul and Silas where women (see acts 16:13)
First European converts where Woman (see acts 16:14)
The 3 daughters of Phillip Paul recognized as Preachers
Math 28:18 was not gender specific Jesus gave the great commission to both men and women
Joel 2 says that the Lord will pour out his spirit on all flesh and his sons AND Daughters will prophecy (aka preach)
So is there a problem with women speaking from the pulpit to a congregation I think not
archshrk responds: Joseph, thanks for taking the time to leave scriptural arguments for your position. These would appear to support women preaching but that is a bit misleading. At no point do I suggest women should not share the Gospel nor do I believe any are excused from it. Rather, I am describing the Complementarian View that says we are created as equal image bearers of Christ but we have specific roles as men and women. Most of the scripture references describe evangelism which you term “preaching” but in none of these cases does the woman described have authority over the men. Regarding the Daughters of Philip, I think Jeffrey T. Riddle’s article Are the Daughters of Philip Among the Prophets of Acts? does an excellent job of discussing this in greater detail. Here’s a highlight…
[...] was originally posted on archshrk.com. You can read the comments and my responses [...]
2 Peter 1:19-21
Do not presume to believe that your particular understanding of prophecy is THE correct one! He says this is the “first” rule of studying prophecy; it is something we must arm ourselves with at the outset. We must be humble enough to realize that our interpretation of prophecy is probably WRONG!
Further more the word prophecy does not mean to PREACH, hello?! It means to have knowledge of the future (usually said to be obtained from a divine source). That is not Preaching. The Holy Spirit can enter into the heart of any woman or man to be a prophet. But to PREACH is to Teach and it’s not coincidence that they both sound alike. Problem is that the world today is a very liberal, ungodly place in which we try to mix scripture with being political correctness. Will a woman go to hell because she preaches? I would trust not but I am not GOD – but lets us not take scripture into private interpretations and instead pray for understanding. The bible leave nothing to ambuguity.
I just wanna state to this entry:
Actually, it isnt only written in Paul’s words! Its also written in 1 Timothy 2:11-15 also. And to ever say that anything in the Bible is wrong or mislead is to call God a liar, for if it were wrong or misleading then God would not have included it in His “Word”.
Thank you so much for this! It’s good to see that there are people out there that actually read their Bible and know what’s going on. My Dad, (who is a pastor) ran across this one day and I was like “For real? Are you serious?” and then he showed me the scripture; I’ve been a believer of this ever since. Also keep in mind, “God is not the author of Confusion.” If you don’t know where that its, take a look at Matthew. Nonetheless, God is not going to contradict himself and say anything he doesn’t mean. The scripture means what is says, plain and simple. If you don’t believe it, oh well. Good post! God Bless!
In the past I was living in sin everyday, I lived with my girlfriend at the time and we would fornicate. After a short period of time God called a stop to it. So I then tried to make the relationship last. People all around me would tell me it is a sin, but I told them we weren’t fornicating. I would ask, show me where in the bible does it say you can’t live with someone without fornicating? No one could show me, but I found out. The bible does say avoid all signs of evil and temptation. So there was the answer!
Now the question is, “Should women be allowed to be the head of a church?” Umm well it clearly states in the bible more than five times that women must not. I think the question everyone should be asking is, “is it a sin to shack up (live) with partner without fornicating?” because the text is not clear on that topic as it is on “Should women be allowed to be the head of a church?”
The moral to my example is how something can but questioned if it clearly states in the bible that women should not be allowed to be head of a church?
If this is the case then although in the bible it say’s we should not fornicate, well let’s start to question that! Not.
-T.E.W.
I get what you’re saying Thomas but, I would say that living together isn’t a sin persay but, considering the fact that it would be EXTREMELY hard not to commit fornication; I wouldn’t recommend it you know? If you want to live with someone, you might as well just marry them so you don’t have to worry about that. Otherwise, just don’t live with them so that you can avoid temptaion you know? Take it easy man.
I read your message again, that is great point man!lol
The Bible specifically says women should be silent in church. However, the world teaches false doctrines today. Only men were prophets. Of course, there was Anna the Prophetess, but that only meant prophesying about something to come. It was the gift of knowing a future event. In Anna’s case–the only female Prophetess in the Bible–this did not mean she was a preacher. In fact, she practice prayer, fasting and what not–remained very humble–and was no preacher or priestess. Not as we think today. Now, here’s the scripture that specifically says women should be remain silent in the church. However, church in the original Bible was ecclesia, which meant fellowship (or assembly) and in now way referred to the huge buildings we think of today. It was an actually group of believers who lived in a specific geographical location. Jesus did not go to building. He preached in the open air. He talked to the poor and homeless. Anyway, here’s that scripture:
“”Let your women keep silence in the Churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak: but they ought to be subject, as also the Law saith. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the ecclesia (fellowship or assembly).” 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.
John Calvin writes of this passage: “14:34 Women are commanded to be silent in public assemblies (not church buildings; they mean nothing to the Lord as we know them today) and they are commanded to ask their husbands at home.”
But, let’s face it? Our world is riddled by doctrines of devils and women calling themselves preachers. They wear short hair and stand up on television and feed the lies of the trinity to the masses. Most of these protestant doctrines descend from the Roman Catholic Church by and large. She is Babylon. Mother of Harlots. She sits on seven hills. John Calvin also verifies the fact. He was around the time of the Inquisitions. He knows the deal. The second bloodbath will surely be worse than the first. It’s coming. Only a remnant shall remain. The rest will turn to the Beast and worship him.
In the case of 1 Timothy 2 Paul was solving a problem for that particular church. At this time Timothy was in Ephesus, a place overrun with paganism that taught that women were superior to men. This was bound to run over into the church which was in chaos. Paul was speaking of the women who were falsly prohpesying in order to keep order.
Also, reference Galatians 3:28
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
1 Corinthians 12
begins … “brothers AND sisters…”
i encourage everyone to read this entire chapter
Nothing not commanded by Jesus should be taught, and Jesus never said that women should not teach his word. We are all called to teach his word and bring others to him so that he can share his love and glory.
Galatians 1:6-10
(Galatians 1:9) “I have already said it. Now I will say it again. Anyone who preaches a “good news” that is different from the one you accepted should be judged by God forever.”
Matthew 15
(Matthew 15:3) Jesus replied, “And why don’t you obey God’s command? You would rather follow your own teachings!”
(Matthew 15:9) — (here Jesus agrees with something in Isaiah 29:13) “Their worship doesn’t mean anything to me. They teach nothing but human rules.”
I do not expect to change anyones mind as only God can truly change your heart and mind. I just want to give you something to think about and consider with as much respect as possible.
Thank you,
Morgan
Morgan, thanks for your comments. I always appreciate civil discourse and you provide scriptural support for your position, and in may ways, I agree. But I want to be clear about what I am talking about. Scripture plainly says that we all are to share and teach the gospel but the issue at hand (in this post) is the role of pastors/elders (not men vs. women). To that end, the verses you provided do not contradict my concussion – they support evangelism, but that is not a position of authority. However, feel free to expand on your thoughts and we can discuss them more.
Also, I would not agree that “Nothing not commanded by Jesus should be taught“. The whole of scripture is God-inspired so you must take it all – as if from Jesus. If we didn’t, then most of the Old Testament would be void – and I doubt you believe that.
In the case of a woman being a pastor at a church I am not quite sure of my position. While it does not state in the bible (to my knowledge) that no women, anywhere, ever, should be pastors it does say that women should be subordinate to their husbands and that the husband is her spiritual leader.
So the question I do have is can a woman be the pastor of a church and still be led by her husband? And what is correct in the matter if a woman is not married?
I do believe that people meet this discussion with anger and passion because in worldly views we are told that we are all equal in the same way. But in the bible, while we are equal in God’s eyes, we play different parts in our lives.
When people read this post I think they may get the idea that it is an attempt to keep women below men. I do not go along with that thinking, however I am skeptical about the evidence behind it. I am genuinely curious.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. This is not an easy subject to discuss, partly because we bring in so many preconceptions. I’ve tried to illustrate from various parts of scripture how we should approach this but a lot of people still feel its about suppressing women.
If you follow the comments you’ll see some of the objections raised and my response, but to address your specific questions – A woman who is not married should be under her father’s spiritual leadership, and he under Christ’s leadership.
The problem we face in this discussion is that many women can’t see themselves submitting to men – and they shouldn’t. As you said, they submit to their husband – but so many women also marry men who are unworthy of that submission.
My advice – if a woman feels called to lead a church, she should marry a man who can be HER spiritual leader, and HE can lead a church with her as his Helper Suitable. I often worry about single pastors. The burden is too much to lead a church alone, and a plurality of elders (multiple pastors) can’t provide the support a good wife can.
God Bless you archshrk! That’s exactly what the problem is. The women that respond think it’s about putting them down. Furthermore, you’re exactly right about the submission part. Take it easy!
If God commands us to “go ye therefore and preach to all nations”…why would he eliminate half the population by only allowing men this ability? I believe this is deception at its finest. Think of the time wasted trying to determine if a male or female has God’s approval for preaching when we all could be preaching His word. God says he does not show favoritism. He refers to us as “sons and daughters” in New Testament, which is not referenced in the Old Testament. This means spiritual equality in God’s eyes. Does it matter if a man or woman is used to bring salvation to another person with God? Does it? I know male preachers who need to step down; they are hurting and stifling God’s work. There are women preachers who can set a fire any congregation for the Lord. And in these latter 2 examples-vice versa. Should we look at the effectiveness of their leadership-are they preaching the truth-are people being led to the Lord? The answer about which sex to preach is unclear, but the qualifications of a leader for God is; why don’t we focus on those characteristics?
I find it amusing that so many people get upset over this issue. It isn’t like you wrote the Bible. As a woman, my instinct is to be offended at the idea that I cannot hold a position of authority, but who am I to question God’s directions? I think that is what is wrong with the world today. we have all forgotten our roles. The most important thing a woman can do is create a loving God-filled home in which to raise her children. When we walked away from God’s plan for raising our families and chose the “glory” of the workplace instead, our society fell into disarray. I do agree that our men have failed as leaders in the house of God. We need our men to return to the ways of God and step up and lead our wives and children to the path of God. They have lost their place because we as mothers were to busy working to provide the spiritual instruction they needed as children. We as women ate the apple, not just once, but over and over again in our silly, petty desire to escape God’s law. we were tempted by money and independence offered in the workforce, and as a result we sold our families and God’s will in our lives. (PS: I am a working woman who has been married for 25 years. Unfortunately, I don’t know how we get back to the proper heirarchy in this modern society. How can we afford to live without two incomes today? I guess this diatribe makes me a bit of a hypocrite.)
Melody, I agree with you 100%! You couldn’t be anymore correct. Women are getting offended and not seeing the issue for what it is. You are so on point! Thank you! It makes me feel to know that there are some women out here with some sense. God bless you!
I get offended when the issue is addressed in a hostile manner, such as calling the woman who preaches a Jezebel or reacting in anger that the woman is preaching — some of the women I have heard are quite good — actually there is a female pastor whose church my sister attends — she’s excellent. I am single and have never been married — the scriptures say that older women should teach younger women how to take care of their homes — well that’s great but my interests do not lie there –
Women dont let this get you down that the bible teaches you are not allowed to pastor, the bible has other areas that seem unfair, no sex outside of marriage, no divoice, no speaking in tougues unless someones persent that can interpet what is being said. we have to accept that our ways are not GODs ways neither our thoughts his thoughts. When I first got saved the fornication thing floored me but I accepted what the word says concerning the matter.
This is a very good discussion- There is a very important part in this scripture that we are missing. First and foremost the noted scripture that you are giving coming from 1 Timothy 2; Paul is giving instructions to Timothy on Worship. In 1 Tim 2:12 Paul states “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authoority over a man; She must be silent.” One key word to this particular scripture is “I”. Paul also stated in verse 9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes.” (wow- a lot of us come to church in sin if that is the case)
My point is this, when Paul was giving instructions-these were his personal preferences in which he was leading his son, Timothy. I will take it a step further—In 1 Corinthians 7 verse 8 Now to the unmarried and the widows, I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried , as I am-
Verse 10 To the married I give this command ( not I, but the Lord) A wife must not separate from her husband. He uses the words, “I say this”.
What do you think?
In the Greek and Hebrew language to preach is to “herald or announce the good news”. If you research this you will find it. Teach in Hebrew is to enlighten, to know, to pierce- Greek it means to instruct differently, to proclaim, to train up”
We are teaching and proclaiming the word of God to the lost, and training others as God has instructed.
Jesus said’ No divorce except for adultery”. Paul says “yes it is okay to divorce-live in peace)( see 1 Corinthians 7)
The question is-is it wrong? I do not believe it is. Is it right? questionable. Is it permissable- YES- as unto the Lord.
I would also like to bring out 1 Corinthians chapter 11 verse 11 “In the Lord a woman is not independent of man, nor is man undependent of a woman. This dealt with prayer and authority of a woman.
To pastor is to tend to a flock or feed the flock. That is the job of a pastor. To feed the flock. Among the flock will be different gifts and offices operating. -From what I have given- decide for yourself whether it is right or wrong for a woman to preach. When we are judged we will be judge as a man or woman? It is our spirit that will be judged and the deed that we do in our body-not my color, not my statue, not my car, not my clothes-we will be sentenced according to our belief in Jesus Christ. We will be rewarded by our deeds. For this reason, Christ was sent. We are no longer bound by the law, because in it we see that we are sinners, but Christ freed us from this…at the end of the day-did you tell of the good news, and restore one who has wandered from the flock (body of Christ). My dear friends, Church is not “In a building” but it is Christ that lives inside of you. Think on these things-whatsoever is of good report, praise worthy. What disgrace is it for a woman to preach? Is it because of the authoritative speech-boldness in Christ, leading one to Christ, sharing of His good news? Or is it her audacity to “speak boldly what God instructed her through the Holy Spirit.” Is it because she spoke it in a building with men in it or outside where men are? Who is this woman who tells of the Love of Christ and gives instruction from God and is inspired by God in her hearing and in her soul.
It is amazing that God would give us authority ( increase, might, right, full privilege) to trample over demons and serpents and powers of the enemy. But little power to lead and teach others to Christ! I believe that Paul was inspired in all that was written. I believe that the Bible is the authorative word of God-no doubt. But I also believe that God inspires and reveals His mysteries to us even now. Jesus said in Revelation 22: 12 Behold I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to every one according to what he has done.
My belief is that some are debating over an issue that is not great. Whether male or female, greek or jew, gentile- Do we believe and are we telling others? Are we edifying. building up, or we living righteous or a sinful life? Are we clean or unclean? Am I leading to Christ or leading away? Relationship or legalism? We waste too much time on issues that divide us.
Finally in my heart, It doesn’t matter whether you are a male or female, are you leading one to a personal relationship with Christ? Do you love Him enough to stand up proclaim the word of God? Are you holy and righteous and filled with His spirit? Women whether you are allowed to stand in a pulpit or on the floor, still be free in the Lord and Go and do what He has commanded. Love inspite of and do not be dismayed or discourage on this issue. I respect Pastors and leaders who are doing the will of God whether male or female, whether pulpit or classroom, whether 10,000 or whether 20, you are a testimony to and for Jesus Christ.
well when it says to ask your husband. what if a woman doesn’t have a husband. I don’t. =D
Christine, when a woman does not have a husband, her father would ideally be the spiritual head of her household. Unfortunately, so many men have failed to be godly men so that many women are without a proper spiritual head of household (this is true with ungodly husbands too). If you are in such a situation, then look for a solid church community where the elders could guide you. Let your godly father and/or godly elders train you in the ways of the Lord. Then you will be equipped (when God wills it) to be a “helper suitable”. Many people who object to “submitting to husbands” fail to realize, they need to find a husband worthy of submitting to. I understand not wanting to submit to the men so many women are willing to settle for. Sorry for getting a little off your question.
Well this topic is very big and simple, and i read most of the comments. I myself experienced both Man pastor and Woman Pastor, I lived with each one for at least 3 years. They both are equal and and they both seeks God. And both are human being and makes a lot of mistakes. One thing I realize is that on the man side there is more control, stable. Even when problem is involve. And on the women side. Lot of knowledge and Prayer, fasting. But not quitly stable. Like no security. I will say the word of GOD is true, men is the head of the household. The woman can preach very good and pray for a long time, but I just don’t think a woman can lead better than a man. Woman seems to change all the time, very emotional, and say things that they are not suppose to say most of the time infront of people or in church. But men keeps control and yet they still make mistakes and faces problems. They are just nutural leaders. Men’s don’t force to lead it easy but for a women its very diffucult, womens suffers alot they worry about every little thing. I believe the both need each other womens are very powerfull but mens are just natural born leaders. If the man is weak a porwerfull woman can build a weak man, but it is difficult for a powerfull man to build a woman, it not a man’s nature. Women’s are builders and men’s are Leaders. Both plays different roles. The word of God is true
Whatever ever paul wrote it was from God. because Jesus said in the Gospel if you recieved whom i have sent than you have recieved me and if you recieved me than you have recieved he who sent me(GOD). God has an order to everything. God is not a feminist he just God. it all has to go back to what happened at the beginning. the devil decieved eve making her think she can be like GOD if she eat and than when she did she got adam to eat off it. he wasnt decieved but was convinced by the woman to eat off the tree and so bc of that he cursed the man, woman, and the deciever aka satan. the curse that man recieved was that the ground was cursed for his sake(man sake), in sorrow shalt thou(man) eat of it all the days. basically god was telling man that he has to work with his own hands for the rest of his life which was passed down to all men bc the curse that adam recieved all men recieved it. the curse he gave woman was that He(God) will greatly multiply thy(woman) sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thy(woman) shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. see now you would say we’ll he said shall, ok lets go the book of the end time called called revelation where it say that God has made us kings and priests unto God. doesnt a king rule. so this is now where the woman is suppose be ruled by her husband which is backed up in the epistle written by paul but authorized by God where he stated that the woman is to be subject unto her husband. so that also mean that the unmarried women should be subject unto her father bc the word said that when we married that we should no longer cleave unto our parents but the husband to his wife. i paraphrased that but it has the same meaning as the scripture. since when has a queen ruled over a king especially in the bible. if you look at its to protect the women from the enemy. eve was a perfect woman but yet the devil was able to decieve. today no one is perfect so how easy you think it is for the devil to decieve the woman today. God is trying to protect the women bc every commandment from God is good and holy which protects from all evil. all i can say is simply obey. eve didnt obey the commandment of God when he told her and adam not to eat off the tree but she did bc the devil tricked her making her think she can be like God even today the devil is trying to decieve woman telling her that she can be like man and teach when God has given woman a command through the apostle paul in 1st corinthians 14:34 and 1 timothy 2:11. dont be like eve as disobey and man dont be like adam and follow the woman bc you see what that caused to all the earth.
Why men fear women in Pastoral Positions?
We won’t tell it all Trust Us! But we will tell the truth!
“Three of those women became known as leaders among the group of women: Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Joses, and Salome. Others include the woman unclean with her feminine infirmity, the despised Samaritan woman who asked Jesus for “the crumbs” for her daughter, and the woman who anointed Jesus. And there are many more.
1. The significant aspect of every story about Jesus and the women he met is that Jesus crossed all lines of propriety—religious and social. He did not do what was “proper” according to his day. His very actions were a challenge to the cherished traditions of his own people.
Jesus went so far as to commend women as examples of faith and spiritual vitality—women who were not counted in the number at synagogue, who were isolated to a separate court at the Temple, women whose religious vows could be overturned by their husbands. In fact, in Jesus’ culture where women were property and had no rights or privileges to call their own, it is surprising that the stories of these women were ever recorded and preserved in Scripture!”
I dont think women are foolish enough to accept this Christian abuse if God had not ordained them to do what they are great at doing.
Jesus came to fulfill the scripture, this is the part he fill in that man left out.
Concerning women in leadership:
According to Romans 16: 1-2 Phoebe is a deacon (the greek word diaconos has been translated into “servant”).
Pls read Acts18,26: Husband AND wife Aquila and Priscilla give some guy deeper insight into Gods Word (“expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly”). That sounds like teaching to me.
Romans 16:7, KJV King James Version
“Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”
It is quitel likely that Junia is a female name. So was she an apostle?
I think one of the reasons why God allows women nowadays to be in position of authority (remember that all authority has been established by God, whether we like it or not), is, that men in the past until today have not only abused their power way too much, but very often they are satisfied with too simple solutions to very complex issues.
Here we have the very elaborate teaching of Monica Dennington from TicToc Ministries about this subject. She looks into the original greek text and gets some interesting insights:
Pls watch “Should Women Teach? … The Final Word” on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e988cBOC5Yw
When interpreting the bible, I think one has to take into consideration
the time period. Women had no rights back then. I think I Timothy 2:12 is an
example of that. It is my understanding that the women of that time, having a
new found freedom in God, began to blurt out questions and comments in church
at the wrong times. This was not only a distraction, but also out of order. The
man being the head, would have quite naturally been more educated in the word,
and anything else for that matter. So it was only appropriate that any questionns
or concerns the women had should be directed toward their husbands, on their
own time.
The Holy Spirit does not discriminate and GOD will use whomever He
chooses to deliver His WORD. Anyone can be used if they will submit to HIM.
Just wondering.. In Acts it talks about Phillips four daughters prophesying , what did that mean.. Were they preaching?
Well the issue in 1 Tim 2:12 is reffering to women teaching men thus usurping authority over men in the office of pastor/bishop, Paul was teaching young tim what to look for in men that desire to be pastors. And yes some men are not qualified to be Pastors either that can’t fit the bill of those qualifications. But it doesn’t disqualify them from being preachers if they were called of God. Because every Pastor is a Preacher, but not Every Preacher has the qualifications to be a Pastor. Now to answer your question on Phillips daughters, they may have preached but certainly not in the assembly. Paul here was reffering to the office of Pastors/Bishops, I don’t think it was preaching the text was reffering to rather than teaching in the office of Pastor/Bishop. Which is not any different than the command for men to head the home, I dont think many women would reject that men should stand up and be the spiritual head of the family and if that be true and I know it is this is Gods will for the Church.
Ok, i see what you are saying, but if they were preaching , who were they preaching to?. The bible say , where there are one or two there am i also. so if you had two or ten, would it be an assembly? Why do men find it so hard to believe that God would want us to help spread the gospel. So if i am not in a building with a group of belivers i would be ok to preach? Like outside or at a park. But then again, the church is not the building, but a body of believers. Am i right here.. ? thank you for responding to my post. I do not believe that a women should hold an office in the church, but a preacher is a preacher, not an Elder unless appointed to be or a deacon unless appointed to be.. So if you are just a preacher, what would we be doing wrong?
Why do you want to preach ? Were you called by God to Preach the Gospel ? or is the desire there simply because men said you should not preach.
If I might ask when did you recieve your call ? what was it like I am interested.
I looked up the word Prophesy in the Webster’s Collegiate Thesaurus, A Merriam-Webster Copyright 1976, it gave some other related words like Foretell, Forecast, Soothsay, Vaticinate and the like but preaching did not come up once.
This is the Strong’s Greek Definition for Prophesy:
AV – prophesy 28; 28
1) to prophesy, to be a prophet, speak forth by divine inspirations,
to predict
1a) to prophesy
1b) with the idea of foretelling future events pertaining esp.
to the kingdom of God
1c) to utter forth, declare, a thing which can only be known
by divine revelation
1d) to break forth under sudden impulse in lofty discourse or
praise of the divine counsels
1d1) under like prompting, to teach, refute, reprove, admonish,
comfort others
1e) to act as a prophet, discharge the prophetic office
Here are a list of Prophetesses in the bible:
Miriam (Ex 15:20)
Deborah (Jud 4:4)
Huldah (2Kings 22:14)
Noadiah (Ne 6:14)
Anna (Lu 2:36)
Daughters of Philip (Acts 21:9)
You are right the assembly are the people not the building
Every Preacher foretells of coming events in their message if they are preaching the Gospel for it tells of the coming of the Savior. So in a sense a Preacher does
Prophesy.
But the word Prophesy as in Acts 2:17 is not speaking of preaching but Prophesying.
Here is an example of Prophesying by the Father of John the baptist Zacharias speaking of his son John the forerunner of Christ and the coming of Jesus Christ our salvation also, notice Luke 1:67-80:
1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
1:68 Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
1:72 To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
1:76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
1:78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
1:80 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his shewing unto Israel.
I wonder if Zacharias was Praising (singing)
I Hope this helps God Bless you dear sister.
Bro. Willis (Gospel Preacher)